Episode 75: This episode delves into the complex and often misunderstood topic of Codependency vs. Interdependency. In codependent relationships, one person tends to give excessively while attempting to meet their own needs by controlling the other. For some, this pattern repeats across many relationships, while others may experience it in just one—often with a loved one who has mental health or substance abuse issues or who exhibits unhelpful relational behaviors.
Joining us to unpack this topic are Jill, a member of Co-Dependents Anonymous (CoDA), and Kat Zwick, LMFT, a psychotherapist and recovery specialist. Together, we explore what it means to establish and maintain healthy boundaries, especially in relationships that pull us into anxious or imbalanced patterns.
This conversation isn’t just for those who identify as codependent but for anyone struggling to distinguish what they can and cannot control. Whether it’s with a child, an aging parent, a troubled friend, or an intimate partner, most of us will face the challenge of drawing appropriate lines about responsibility at some point. If you’re a parent, caregiver, or spouse to someone in such a dynamic, the stakes—and the challenges—can be even greater. Join us as we discuss strategies to navigate these relationships and discover a path to greater personal well-being.
Broadcast: 2/2/25 & 2/10/25
Producer & Host: Debra Sloss, LMFT
Guests: Kat Zwick, LMFT & Jill
Special thanks to VJ Lukka for audio production, Youssef Hassanein for Volunteer Coordination, Patrice Vecchione for Story Coaching, Katrina Tattenham for Research, Ranton Hui and Roni Wong for Transcriptions, Nimalan Elanchelvan for Marketing, and Priscilla Yee for Graphic Design. And thanks to acoustic guitarist Adrian Legg for composing, performing, and donating the use of our theme music.
ABOUT STATE of MIND
STATE of MIND is a radio show and podcast hosted by psychotherapist Debra Sloss. Through intimate conversations, it delves into mental health and wellness topics, blending personal stories from guests with lived experience and insights from experts in the field. Together, we navigate the complexities of being human and living well. Find inspiration, resources, and hope at STATE of MIND or www.stateofmindmedia.org. Produced by Debra Sloss with support from KSQD Community Radio.
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RESOURCES
Websites
Co-dependents Anonymous (CoDA) World — 12-step program for those who want healthy and loving relationships; Offers information about the program, where to find meetings, and resources to learn more about codependence relational patterns.
NorCal CoDA — Co-Dependents Anonymous for Northern California. Provides information about the program, working the steps and where and how to attend online meetings.
Out of the Fog —Offers support on how to communicate with people who have personality disorders.
National Alliance for Mental Illness (NAMI) – Santa Cruz County Chapter — Provides free information, education classes, and support groups and does advocacy for those with loved ones with mental illness.
Al-Anon – Al-Anon Family Groups are fellowships of relatives and friends of those who struggle with alcohol or drug addiction. They share their experience, strength, and hope in order to solve their common problems. Al-Anon sees alcohol addiction as a family illness and that changed attitudes can aid recovery. Al-Anon is not allied with any sect, denomination, political entity, organization, or institution; does not engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any cause. There are no dues for membership. Al-Anon is self-supporting through its own voluntary contributions. Al-Anon has but one purpose: to help families deal with addiction. Al-Anon does this by practicing the Twelve Steps, by welcoming and giving comfort to families,, and by giving understanding and encouragement to the person struggling with addiction.
Alateen – Alateen is a fellowship of young Al-Anon members, usually teenagers, ages 12 to 19, whose lives have been affected by someone else’s drinking. Alateen groups are sponsored by Al-Anon members who meet the current Northern California World Service Association Alateen safety requirements and have successfully completed a background check.
Al-Anon/Alateen Meetings in Santa Cruz County in English and Spanish:
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- More Information or call 831-462-1818
- Download Free Al-Anon and Alateen Literature including information for professionals
- FAQ for Newcomers
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Books & Articles
Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself by Melody Beattie (1986) — Instructive life stories, personal reflections, exercises, and self-tests to help readers understand codependency and to learn to unlock its hold. This book can help chart a path to freedom and recovery.
Facing Codependence: What It Is, Where It Comes from, How It Sabotages Our Lives by Pia Mellody and Andrea Wells Miller (2003) — Identifies codependent thinking, emotions and behavior and provides an effective approach to recovery. Mellody sets forth five primary adult symptoms of this crippling condition, then traces their origin to emotional, spiritual, intellectual, physical and sexual abuses that occur in childhood.
Breaking Free: A Recovery Workbook for Facing Codependence by Pia Mellody and Andrea Wells Miller (1989) — A workbook that provides a step-by-step journal-keeping method for moving toward recovery from codependence. Based on such concepts as the “precious child” and the five core symptoms of codependence, along with the Twelve-Step process of recovery used by Codependents Anonymous.
All Books & Audio by Pia Mellody— An authority, lecturer and educator in the fields of addictions and relationships and a leading author of books on Codependency. This website contains a full listing of her publications, audio resources, as well as some free recovery articles.
All Books by Melody Beattie — Author of the sentinel work, “Codependent No More,” which (italics?) introduced the world to the term “Codependency” in 1986. This website contains a full listing of all her publications with descriptions, as well as some recovery tools.
Moving From Codependent to Interdependent Relationships — An article defining codependent patterns and the qualities associated with interdependent relationships published by the Gender & Sexuality Therapy Center, Nov. 29.
Counseling Resources
Ride the Wave Recovery — Individual and Group psychotherapy for recovery from eating disorders, addictions, codependency & trauma for clients of all genders, sexualities & neurotypes. Email: admin@ridethewaverecovery.com, Phone: 831-275-541
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- DBT Mindfulness & Skills Group Series — For Northern California Clients
Kat Zwick’s 22-Week Group Series . This group is appropriate for people struggling with unmanageable codependency that leads to problematic behaviors against self or others.
- DBT Mindfulness & Skills Group Series — For Northern California Clients
* Family Service Agency (FSA) of the Central Coast is a dedicated underwriter of State of Mind. FSA provides resources, support, and counseling services to adults and children. FSA believes in the power and potential of people of all ages and backgrounds to discover their own creative solutions and welcomes people of diverse cultures, genders, sexual orientations, ages, faiths, socio-economic backgrounds. FSA Counseling Offices offer Medi-Cal, Medicare, and low-cost, sliding scale services in both downtown Santa Cruz 831-423-9444 x200 and in Soquel 831-346-6767 x200.
* Shine a Light Counseling Center – Offering quality, affordable counseling at offices in Santa Cruz, Watsonville and Monterey. The center provides individual, family, couple and group counseling, including men’s groups.
Phone: 831-996-1222
Spiritual Resources Recommended by Jill
Mount Madonna Center — Yoga-based online spiritual classes at no cost.
Free YouTube meditations by Ellaeenah Jadefire
Interdependency Support
Girls Inc. of the Central Coast – Offers leadership and self-empowerment programs for girls ages 8 to 18 led by peers or mentors at school sites in Santa Cruz, Monterey, and San Benito Counties.
Contact Guests
Jill – Available to answer questions about Co-Dependents Anonymous or offer advise regarding other local resources. Email: pupjill@hotmail.com
