The Dream Journal
The Dream Journal
Divine by Design with Sahlah and Andrusa

Freud, Jung, Perls, Taylor and Hillman. So many dream experts are old white men. Today we talk about the importance of supporting a movement towards inclusion and diversity within the historically white field of dreamwork. Our guests are brother and sister team Andrusa Lawson and Sahlah Dubel, founders of Divine by Design.

Our guests start out talking about surviving their childhoods in inner city Baltimore including poverty, living with substance abusers and racial violence. We talk about what Obama called “the original sin” of slavery in our country and about how we are working out cultural issues in our dreams as well as own personal psychological issues. We touch on the dangers of Euro-centric thought and barriers to support to people of color including cost, difficulty finding practitioners with similar experience and the priority of survival over growth. We also talk about silence as a catalyst for change, working with intuition and the power of community in creating change. They end by describing their vision for a sacred space dreaming group.

We take a call from Santa Cruz local Ahlene with a dream to share in which she found herself being guided down lengthy dark halls. Sahlah and Andrusa suggest that she pay attention to the feelings in the dream and consider that these are the key gifts of the dream. Perhaps “the seeing is in the doing”: no interpretation needed.

BIO: Andrusa and Sahlah come from a family of exceptional dreamers. Growing up in inner-city Baltimore meant balancing the need for spiritual growth against the realities of homelessness and exposure to substance abuse. Their journeys led to exploring immersive meditation practices (including Tibetan, Jungian, and Amazonian practices), strategies for detoxification, the healing qualities of movement, song, prayer, and the elements of Nature. Andrusa and Sahlah are co-founders of Divine By Design, a social benefit corporation dedicated to supporting the resilience of communities. Their lucid dreaming workshop series entitled, AWAKE, shares practical techniques and tools to navigate dreaming experiences. They are now members of the International Association for the Study of Dreams participating in the 2022 cohort of the Dreams and Ethnicity course.

We play clips from the following two guest-selected songs:  Weightless by Reina Williams, Black is the Colour by Tia Blake, Breathe by Sweet Honey in the Rock.

Ambient music created by Rick Kleffel new every week. Many thanks to Rick Kleffel for also engineering the show, to Tony Russomano for answering the phones and to Ewa Malady for audio editing.

Show aired on April 2, 2022.


The Dream Journal is produced at and airs on KSQD Santa Cruz, 90.7 FM, streaming live at 10-11am Saturday mornings Pacific time.  Catch it live and call in with your dreams or questions at 831-900-5773 or at

If you want to contact Katherine Bell with feedback, suggestions for future shows or to inquire about exploring your own dreams with her, contact, or find out more about her at

The complete KSQD Dream Journal podcast page can be found at

You can also check out The Dream Journal on the following podcast platforms:  Rate it, review it, subscribe and tell your friends.

Apple Podcasts

Google Play